Discussion (not much of a discussion) on Free Will and Consciousness


John Karavitis
4 weeks agoFree will is denied by pointing out that every particle is forced to “accept” any force applied to it. However, a collection of particles, like a person, take external forces and essentially “perform a calculation” whereby they can then decide to take or not, based on prior experience. We have free will because we’re a bit more complicated than a a lone particle getting buffeted by forces outside its control. And you can’t tell what a person will decide until the “physical computation” is made. Cause and effect don’t go away. You would NOT want to live in a world where you couldn’t predict the effects of your actions. But we are a collection of particles that can exercise CHOICE. Just because I can’t fly from flapping my arms up and down doesn’t mean I lack free will. And so on.Show less8REPLYHide 29 replies

SuperSpock4 weeks agoSincerely speaking, your statements are merely explanatory and thus complexity guised as elegance. Reassess and simplify it to a descriptive format. Currently, it’s riddled with illogic. I know pure description cannot be achieved. What’s imperative is self-evident.Show less1REPLY

Fernando Alamón4 weeks agoJust because something is complex doesn´t mean that it is excempt from laws that govern it. Also, the fact that you cannot predict an occurrence doesn´t mean that it is unpredictable or spontaneous, but rather that we have insufficient knowledge about the causes that determine said occurrence.6REPLY

SuperSpock4 weeks ago@Fernando Alamón What laws? Mechanistic events are predictable. Events involving consciousness are not.REPLY

SuperSpock4 weeks ago@Fernando Alamón What do you mean by complexity? What’s an occurrence? Why did you use “unpredictable” and “spontaneous”, as synonyms or at the very least interchangeably? There’s need for further clarification before you jump to conclusion/s.REPLY

MrBenbenky4 weeks agoWho or better what is it that is doing the “physical computation” of deciding?3REPLY

BUBBLEGUM GUN4 weeks agoin other words we are particle and waves that have gotten extremely politicalREPLY

BUBBLEGUM GUN4 weeks ago@MrBenbenky we are the bio electric sheep that grown an ego in order to dream, sometimes i wonder if everyone has free will by that i mean the soul of an ubermensch is it a mental state a person reaches after they decide to stop simping for outside forces in the political meme war , i mean what is brazil but a state of mind. i think it should be renamed “liberty will” or “libwill” since to say “free” would mean a outside force is providing it.Show lessREPLY

Khaled Rapp3 weeks ago@SuperSpock Lol at you telling someone else to “ressess and simplify” after that pretentious word salad of a comment. Tone down the pedantry a bit. It’ll make it easier to communicate with people.2REPLY

John Karavitis3 weeks ago@SuperSpock I’m sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor. Is English a second language for you?REPLY

John Karavitis3 weeks ago@Fernando Alamón But I can still claim free will, as long as I make a choice. I have no control over the rest of the universe inpinging upon my sense and body, yet, whatever happens, I can decide if it a reaction is to my benefit, etc.REPLY

John Karavitis3 weeks ago@BUBBLEGUM GUN Not what I meant, and you know it!REPLY

John Karavitis3 weeks ago@MrBenbenky The act of the body, with its trillions of particles, reacting to the incoming sense impressions/physical contact. As long as I am not a vegetable, even if I can do nothing about a situation, I can still have preferences as to what I want to happen. So maybe even having a choice is not needed to claim free will!REPLY

BUBBLEGUM GUN3 weeks ago@John Karavitis k. I just dont get how determinist/ fatalist can also support multiple universe theory when it seems contradictory. If there is an outside force running the universe making 1 path why make different versions of that same pathShow lessREPLY

Fernando Alamón3 weeks ago@SuperSpock You are mistaking the “ordo essendi” for the “ordo cognoscendi”; an event can be impossible to predict drom our current knowledge and yet be deterministic; events can also be impossible to predict in principle and still be deterministic, we simply don´t know.1REPLY

Fernando Alamón3 weeks ago@MrBenbenky Exactly, he is positing an “I” without being aware of it.REPLY

Fernando Alamón3 weeks ago@John Karavitis I don´t think you can; your reaction is as fatalistically determined as everything else. If you want to call the realisation that some occurance is in your interest “free will”, that is perfectly fine, just be warned that that is not what the phiosophical tradition has always understood to be fre-will.REPLY

SuperSpock3 weeks agoGuys, there’s no need to take things personally. I thought we were going to have a discussion. Clearly, I was wrong.1REPLY

SuperSpock3 weeks ago@Fernando Alamón Thanks for being polite.1REPLY

Fernando Alamón3 weeks ago@SuperSpock Your’re welcome.REPLY

Fernando Alamón3 weeks ago@SuperSpock I call sth complex which can be analized, i.e broken into smaller parts. By occurence I understand sth that takes place in a given space at a given time. I do not think that I implied that unpredictability and spontaneity can be conflated, in fact the difference seems clear to me: If A is unpredictable, it means that we cannot know in advance whether A will take place or not, but this does not imply that A is not part of a deterministic chain. On the other hand, in order for A to be spontaneous it must be completely free from the rule of law and be capable of “self determination” in the literal sense of the word.Show lessREPLY

SuperSpock3 weeks ago (edited)@Fernando Alamón Complexity and simplicity are all words. Words are part of language. Language is complex but it’s also the only tool we have. I would say Language and Thought are one and the same. We haven’t made Language purely descriptive yet. Language is Complexity and so is Thought. Why do we have the tendency if not the need to clarify? It’s because we’re going to the source of all Thought. To put it simply, if Thought is all there is to consciousness then we simply need to refine Language as efficiently as possible. But, if there is an underlying reality to consciousness then when we acquire perfection everything will have been described sufficiently. But, tbh, that is not the case. There are mathematical probabilities and improbabilities which are directly antithetical to the possibility of attaining perfection in the form of pure description. Only what’s thoroughly and transparently descriptive is the highest form of perfection going by current definition. Qualia or rather what we think of as such when we speak of consciousness, is not an accurate enough term. Qualia refers to conscious experiences or the feeling of being alive. The two are not the same. Experience is a fragment. The feeling is not. All descriptions are currently insufficient to clarify anything. To find the first cause may be a task ill-suited to the realm of Thought.Show lessREPLY

Daedalus3 weeks agoLMFAO!REPLY

Aaron2 weeks ago@SuperSpock Events involving consciousness are not exempt from physical laws, and are predictable.REPLY

Aaron2 weeks ago@MrBenbenky It is your neural network (brain). Which is part of you, but most of its actions are unknown to you and not under your conscious control.REPLY

Aaron2 weeks ago@John Karavitis Choice, or decisions, are not evidence of free will. I have designed machines that make choices based on sensory input. Even a thoroughly deliberated decision is not evidence of free will. If the clock where rewound you would make the same decision every time, based on the initial starting conditions of the universe and the physical laws that govern occurrences.Show lessREPLY

Aaron2 weeks ago@John Karavitis You do not determine what your preferences are.1REPLY

Aaron2 weeks ago@BUBBLEGUM GUN IF we live in a multiverse, each universe has its own initial conditions and physical laws, thus there will be different outcomes and still no free will.REPLY

SuperSpock2 weeks ago (edited)@Aaron Only if the person whose actions you’re trying to predict has a logical framework of thought like you do. And even then you’re only predicting the mechanisms and not what the consciousness is doing because that’s impossible.REPLY

SuperSpock2 weeks ago@Aaron Here’s what we agree on: 1.) We don’t have free will. 2.) Machines can have choices. 3.) We do not determine what our preferences are. And yet I would say consciousness is indescribable and thus unpredictable.

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